Agree or Disagree?

Alright here's an innocuous subject. That new Young Justice cartoon, the one that's basically the same thing as Teen Titans just with a whole different direction.

A: who thinks it looks like an okay show?
B: who thinks Arsenal is going to show up at some point as a bad guy? (Hint in the comics he started being 'Arsenal' when he left Green Arrow and went to go work for the governmental.)

Also just as a statement. Project Cadmus was the same project that in Justice League lead to the Justice Friend knock offs, Long Shadow and the others, as well as Power Girl, the older Super Girl clone.
In that show it was run by Amanda Waller, who is the black lady which in Batman/Superman Public Enemies, a high Lex Luthor locked lips and popped slop with.

I think that our next topic should be "Should there be wifin in da club?"

Wait! I have a statement!!

Week 7:Nobody is ALL bad.

Agree or Disagree? Why?

Disagree. Everyone is evil.

Everyone has at least one good thing about them. It's just that sometimes (most times if you're more jaded) it is outweighed heavily by the mountain of terrible things about them.

I'll have to agree with Mercy on this one. At least in that everyone is self-serving. People will always put themselves, or their mental picture of themselves first.

Even when they perform apparently self sacrificing actions it's more likely that they're just doing this because they're protecting their sense of self. Sometime people would rather die than live with the knowledge that they're not who they think they are.

Everyone is out for themselves.

Agree.

If there's one thing that television has taught me, it's that everyone has some good in them. Every one has some reason that they're doing whatever despicable deed they're doing.

You have no idea what happened to the person to make them act like that.

SnowFallsSlow wrote:If there's one thing that television has taught me, it's that everyone has some good in them.

I'm sure Slade disagrees with this statement. Who runs most television shows? People who want to force a false worldview down the throats of ignorant American children, all of a sudden a man who has killed an entire family pleads that he had a rough childhood and he's basically set free of charge. Man is basically good? When the greeks tried to humanize their gods more what happened to them? Lets just say that they sure were more human than they were good.

Romans 3:10-18 states that no man is good, no not one. We're all basically evil. It's how human nature is.

Every one has some reason that they're doing whatever despicable deed they're doing....
You have no idea what happened to the person to make them act like that.

There was a couple sentenced named Brian Peterson and Amy Grossberg who gave birth to a child in a hotel room, they crushed their newborn's head and threw his lifeless body into a dumpster. Well that's the despicable deed they're doing, tell me what justifies that.

Romans 3:10-18 states that no man is good, no not one. We're all basically evil. It's how human nature is.

lol, using the Bible as the ultimate determiner of human morality.

People aren't born evil. I don't know how many babies you guys have known that were pure malevolence, but the ones I've been around tend to be the bubbliest, most loving human beings imaginable. Now, over time, your mind might be warped by your experiences. You can become wicked at heart. But you're not born that way; you have the potential for good or for evil.

Once upon a time, Adolf Hitler was a harmless kid with dreams of becoming an artist. Meditate on that.

Mercy wrote:
There was a couple sentenced named Brian Peterson and Amy Grossberg who gave birth to a child in a hotel room, they crushed their newborn's head and threw his lifeless body into a dumpster. Well that's the despicable deed they're doing, tell me what justifies that.

I'm sure the starving hobo's didn't complain.

Spoiler:

Laughing_Man wrote:

Mercy wrote:
There was a couple sentenced named Brian Peterson and Amy Grossberg who gave birth to a child in a hotel room, they crushed their newborn's head and threw his lifeless body into a dumpster. Well that's the despicable deed they're doing, tell me what justifies that.

I'm sure the starving hobo's didn't complain.

Spoiler:

A better point would be that if we were all as evil as that, then we'd all be crushing baby skulls left and right, and humanity would have died out a long time ago.

Naked Snake wrote:

Laughing_Man wrote:

Mercy wrote:
There was a couple sentenced named Brian Peterson and Amy Grossberg who gave birth to a child in a hotel room, they crushed their newborn's head and threw his lifeless body into a dumpster. Well that's the despicable deed they're doing, tell me what justifies that.

I'm sure the starving hobo's didn't complain.

Spoiler:

A better point would be that if we were all as evil as that, then we'd all be crushing baby skulls left and right, and humanity would have died out a long time ago.

Like in Sparta! Oh wait...

Laughing_Man wrote:

Naked Snake wrote:

Laughing_Man wrote:

Mercy wrote:
There was a couple sentenced named Brian Peterson and Amy Grossberg who gave birth to a child in a hotel room, they crushed their newborn's head and threw his lifeless body into a dumpster. Well that's the despicable deed they're doing, tell me what justifies that.

I'm sure the starving hobo's didn't complain.

Spoiler:

A better point would be that if we were all as evil as that, then we'd all be crushing baby skulls left and right, and humanity would have died out a long time ago.

Like in Sparta! Oh wait...

They only smashed deformed babies.

Besides, using Sparta as an example of human morality is also pretty twisted...

Naked Snake wrote:

Laughing_Man wrote:

Naked Snake wrote:

Laughing_Man wrote:

Mercy wrote:
There was a couple sentenced named Brian Peterson and Amy Grossberg who gave birth to a child in a hotel room, they crushed their newborn's head and threw his lifeless body into a dumpster. Well that's the despicable deed they're doing, tell me what justifies that.

I'm sure the starving hobo's didn't complain.

Spoiler:

A better point would be that if we were all as evil as that, then we'd all be crushing baby skulls left and right, and humanity would have died out a long time ago.

Like in Sparta! Oh wait...

They only smashed deformed babies.

Besides, using Sparta as an example of human morality is also pretty twisted...

Hardly, morality is completely subjective. I find Roman morality fascinating, mainly from watching Rome on T.V. but still...

Mercy wrote:I'm sure Slade disagrees with this statement.

Right. The plot point with the job of giving the heroes something to fight. His opinion matters.
That aside, Slade had (for a little while there) a very good, loving relationship with his wife and kids. Sure, it all went down the crapper, but he does have some good in him. It may be completely misguided good in the form of "Sink or Swim Mentor," but it is there.

Mercy wrote:Romans 3:10-18 states that no man is good, no not one. We're all basically evil. It's how human nature is.

That doesn't mean that everyone is rotten to the core. "Completely good" and "some good in them" are, last time I checked, completely different things.

Mercy wrote:

SnowFallsSlow wrote:Every one has some reason that they're doing whatever despicable deed they're doing....
You have no idea what happened to the person to make them act like that.

Well that's the despicable deed they're doing, tell me what justifies that.

I said they have a reason, I didn't say it was justified. They may be able to justify it to themselves, but the fact that you can't falls under the bit I said about "having no idea what happened" to them. Also, they may be baby-squishers, but that doesn't mean there's no good in them. You may feel that the killing of babies negates any good in them, but the fact remains it's still there.

Right. The plot point with the job of giving the heroes something to fight. His opinion matters.
That aside, Slade had (for a little while there) a very good, loving relationship with his wife and kids. Sure, it all went down the crapper, but he does have some good in him. It may be completely misguided good in the form of "Sink or Swim Mentor," but it is there.

Yeah but television never showed that. Why? Because they the producers didn't want to show a good side to Slade. Everyone in the show had inner flaws they had to overcome because they're not basically good. Another reason why I like the show.

That doesn't mean that everyone is rotten to the core. "Completely good" and "some good in them" are, last time I checked, completely different things.

Did you even read the verse?

Mercy wrote:

SnowFallsSlow wrote:Every one has some reason that they're doing whatever despicable deed they're doing....
You have no idea what happened to the person to make them act like that.

Well that's the despicable deed they're doing, tell me what justifies that.

I said they have a reason, I didn't say it was justified. They may be able to justify it to themselves, but the fact that you can't falls under the bit I said about "having no idea what happened" to them. Also, they may be baby-squishers, but that doesn't mean there's no good in them. You may feel that the killing of babies negates any good in them, but the fact remains it's still there.[/quote]

Having a reason and justifying it is one in the same, Snow. If they give to charity, if they help the poor, if they do what society defines as "good" and they stomp a defenseless child's head, that STILL makes them cold-blooded murderers.



Concerning children and youngsters, yes they grow up without any good in them. You don't NEED to teach them how to lie or steal, it's in their nature.

Did you even read the verse?

Did it occur to you that the Bible might not be the great ethical decider for people besides yourself, and that other people might dismiss it? Yeah, the Bible says that people are universally evil. The Bible says a lot of things, and I don't pay attention to most of them.

There are pure evil people in the world. That doesn't mean that evil is the default for all human beings. The world is not so simple, painted in broad strokes of black and white as you think.

So wait, Mercy, you have no faith in humanity, including yourself? You believe all people are wicked? You believe there is no redeeming quality about anyone ever, again including yourself? 'Cause that's what I'm reading and it makes me feel very sorry for you.

In my personal experience, the average person is pretty decent. No, not perfect, but I'd definitely call them good for the most part.

Mercy wrote:

SnowFallsSlow wrote:
Right. The plot point with the job of giving the heroes something to fight. His opinion matters.
That aside, Slade had (for a little while there) a very good, loving relationship with his wife and kids. Sure, it all went down the crapper, but he does have some good in him. It may be completely misguided good in the form of "Sink or Swim Mentor," but it is there.

Yeah but television never showed that. Why? Because they the producers didn't want to show a good side to Slade. Everyone in the show had inner flaws they had to overcome because they're not basically good. Another reason why I like the show.

Again, you used a term that means "not all." You're right. Not everyone hugs rainbows and kisses babies. But there is some redeemable quality to everyone. And, these are the same producers who "want to force a false worldview down the throats of ignorant American children," right? Or does that only apply when they don't agree with what you're saying?

Mercy wrote:

SnowFallsSlow wrote:That doesn't mean that everyone is rotten to the core. "Completely good" and "some good in them" are, last time I checked, completely different things.

Did you even read the verse?

I did. Righteousness is "The quality or state of being righteous; holiness; purity; uprightness; rectitude." No one, not a single person, can live without sin and without evil. But that's not this question. The question isn't "does everyone have some evil in them?" It's "does everyone have some good in them?" If we're going by the Bible, humans are, by nature, corrupt. Yes, everyone has some evil in them, lots, as the case may be. However, the Bible also says that the only unforgivable sin is rejecting the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God in His entirety. Once the sins committed are forgiven, the person in question becomes "whiter than snow" (which is pretty white, believe me). They get God's "thumbs-up," if you will. So the answer, using the Bible, would also be, yes, everyone has some good in them. No one is beyond bringing back or turning around.

Mercy wrote:

SnowFallsSlow wrote:

Mercy wrote:

SnowFallsSlow wrote:Every one has some reason that they're doing whatever despicable deed they're doing....
You have no idea what happened to the person to make them act like that.

Well that's the despicable deed they're doing, tell me what justifies that.

I said they have a reason, I didn't say it was justified. They may be able to justify it to themselves, but the fact that you can't falls under the bit I said about "having no idea what happened" to them. Also, they may be baby-squishers, but that doesn't mean there's no good in them. You may feel that the killing of babies negates any good in them, but the fact remains it's still there.

Having a reason and justifying it is one in the same, Snow. If they give to charity, if they help the poor, if they do what society defines as "good" and they stomp a defenseless child's head, that STILL makes them cold-blooded murderers.

They can justify it to themselves. I can't justify it to myself. But, that means that I don't think whatever good they do makes up for the fact that they killed that baby. If they cured cancer, the fact of that murder would still be there. But, if they held open the door for a little old lady, or gave a tired waitress a nice tip, or did any number of little good things, that murder does not change the fact of those good things. It may, and probably does, eclipse them, but it does not eradicate them. Hence, while they may not be good people, there is good in them.

Mercy wrote:Concerning children and youngsters, yes they grow up without any good in them. You don't NEED to teach them how to lie or steal, it's in their nature.

This is true. In favor of self-preservation, children are capable of doing naughty things. But, they don't have to be taught to do good things, either. Like smiling. Or laughing. And if you say, "They pick that up from the people around them," the same can be argued for lying and for speaking, which is necessary for lying.

For the record, there are some kids, Mercy, who can't lie. They try and it eats them up inside until they tell the truth. My younger brother will just sit quietly and be yelled at rather than lie to make the lecture stop. He'll also tell the truth even if it means a lecture. You can bet my parents didn't teach him that.

Naked Snake wrote:Did it occur to you that the Bible might not be the great ethical decider for people besides yourself, and that other people might dismiss it? Yeah, the Bible says that people are universally evil. The Bible says a lot of things, and I don't pay attention to most of them.

Snake has a serious point here. While I may or may not have told you I was a Christian (and I think I did), not everyone does look to the Bible for guidance, and there are a lot of good people who haven't touched it.

Xenophobic Sponge wrote:In my personal experience, the average person is pretty decent. No, not perfect, but I'd definitely call them good for the most part.

Again, perfection is not the issue here, Mercy. The concept of someone having some little piece of good inside them is.

Okay since I'm on my phone I just want to give you the sparknotes version of my rebuttal.

Teen Titans stands out, they're not like other mindless cartoon shows, producers like Bruce Timm, Glen Murakami, Curt Geda, and Alan Burnett produce remarkable shows and are not afraid to deal with adult issues. Though the shows like Teen Titans, The Batman series, and other shows are meant for the 10 year old age group, it can be enjoyed by adults. Those shows really stand out unlike the rest of television which show that crap, though being Superheroes and Villains, you need a stark contrast of good and evil.

Actually, meet me in the Chatbox next time you get a chance. My fingers are starting to hurt.

They try and it eats them up inside until they tell the truth.

That doesn't mean they didn't lie in the first place.

But, they don't have to be taught to do good things, either.

I agree with Mercy. Doing bad things is second nature to us. You have to teach children to be good little boys and girls, to be obedient, respectful, all that stuff. You have to discipline them. The bible says, ''Spare the rod, spoil the child.'' If you don't bring them up with good, benevolent guidance, they will be bad.

There was once an old Batman episode that I think is quiet on point here. The scarecrow was infecting the city with something, but this time, instead of causing people to be afraid, he was making it so people couldn't be afraid.

His argument was that fear is what keeps people in line, it's what keeps everyone from just doing whatever they want, fear of the consequences, how many times would someone have quit their job if they weren't afraid of finding themselves out of work and unable to pay their bills.

He was right, fear of the consequences is what keeps us in line, people would murder if they weren't afraid of getting caught. It isn't 'innate goodness' that keeps people from being bad, its a fear of the consequences, our society punishes evil and praises kindness, if it were the other way around things would be easier.

Yes but if humanity doesn't have any good to it, why does our society reward good? If humans are born innately evil and have to be told/taught to be good people, who originally taught humans to be good? You might not think there's a lot, but humanity has at least some good in it, because it had to come from somewhere.


I personally think humanity has more good in it than not, and I really don't think the average person would be a murderer if suddenly they had no fear.

That doesn't mean they didn't lie in the first place.

That's because they have a conscience, and are capable of feeling bad about doing a misdeed.

Allow me to summarize what myself, Snow and Old Spongecaeks are saying, in suitably melodramatic fashion.

*ahem*

PEOPLE ARE NOT PERFECTLY GOOD, NOR PERFECTLY EVIL. EVERY ONE OF US HAS DONE SOMETHING AWFUL THAT WE REGRET. WE REGRET IT BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT IT WAS WRONG, AND WE PROBABLY KNEW THAT IT WAS WRONG AT THE TIME, BUT WENT AHEAD AND DID IT ANYWAY. DOES OUR REGRET CHANGE HISTORY? DOES THE MISDEED MAGICALLY DISAPPEAR BECAUSE WE FEEL BAD ABOUT IT? NO, OF COURSE NOT, AND NOBODY IS SAYING THAT. THE POINT THAT IS BEING MADE IS NOT THAT WE DON'T DO BAD THINGS, BUT THAT WE'RE CAPABLE OF REGRETTING THOSE BAD THINGS, AND ACTIVELY WORKING TO MAKE AMENDS, WHICH WE WOULD NOT DO IF WE WERE TRULY EVIL AT HEART. WE WOULD LET IT GO, GET ON WITH OUR LIVES AND PROBABLY LAUGH ABOUT IT OVER A PINT OF BABY BLOOD LATER.

[/argument]

I like my baby blood freshly squeezed with a wedge of lemon.

Baby lemon.